Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the exclusive Cosmic Curtain interview with Devin Bowles. I'm Brian Kitson, head writer of the Cosmic Circus and the Cosmic Circus Broadway. Bowles is currently starring in MJ the Musical, which is here in Detroit until November 3rd, as a part of the Broadway in Detroit 2024, 2025 season. In this interview, Bowles speaks on bringing the iconic Jackson family to life. What some of the challenges have been with his time on this production and how he's grown as a person and an actor as a result. Enjoy. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule from MJ the Musical. How's the tour going?
[00:00:34] Speaker B: It's going. First time in Detroit. We just started year two, and we're chugging along really well.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Well, welcome to Detroit. I mean, this is the perfect city.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: You know, man, look, I haven't been to Detroit since I was 7, 8, so it's good to be back in my adulthood life. This is fine.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: You actually got to visit Hitzville yesterday. Correct.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Hitsville was a time. It was an experience like you grow up seeing seeing the building, seeing the stairs. You see the photos of all the icons, like, you know, working in the studio with Barry Gordy and being in there and having a chance to connect that moment full circle, brother. It was beautiful. It wasn't surreal. I had to take a moment and be like, hey, this is what these artists felt like when they walked through these doors and et cetera. And it was just. It was. It was beautiful. But, yeah, we all went yesterday. Me, Jamal and Josh Dawson. Yeah, we had a good time.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: It's always one of those things. Growing up in Detroit as a child, you kind of take it. You don't appreciate it as much, but when you're an adult, it hits differently.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very different. Especially being in Detroit with this type of show and this energy and in this time in our lives, it really was an impactful moment. I was. I was fangirling for a little bit as I walked.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: So speaking of the musical, you get to play two different roles in it. So I think that maybe you get to. You could tell us a little bit about who you're playing and how they fit into the story.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: So people are going to know who they are, obviously, but like.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, of course. So in this show, mj Lynn Nottage, who's our tremendous Puliso winning prize writer, she has used this device that we've seen in other shows. We've seen it in Hamilton. You know, we've seen it in shows past but basically one person plays two roles, right? And for myself, I play Rob, who is in the story we've built.
You know, Michael's right hand man, his director, his choreographer for this Dangerous tour. And in the other cap, we see Joe Jackson who we all, you know, the infamous Joe. We know Joe who's the father of the Jackson 5 and father of Michael. So yeah, we use that device and we, we go back and forth in time and present day, which is 1992, that we've set this Dangerous World Tour and really just get a chance to, we pull the humanity out of Michael through these two characters. And I think it's such a pivotal device that she decided to use to.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Push this story using that device. Do you see them as kind of like foils of each other? Are there pieces that are reflective of Joe and of Rob?
[00:03:14] Speaker B: To a degree. I mean, very, I mean, they are two different contrasting people. And I just talked about this with my acting coach. You know, when, when you have an opportunity to play somebody real and then also build a character for me that is so exhilarating. Like I love being able to play somebody who is the antagonist and is somebody that you have the full opportunity to build an arc with, you know, and start from the ground up. I would say their similarity is definitely throughout the process, Michael is affected by both of their inputs, both of their decisions, both of their opinions. You know, when it comes to Dangerous World Tour that we've built, Rob has his hands on the dancers, he has his hands on the singers. He's constantly given ideas, declining ideas, reflecting ideas. So he has this, this directive, esque, you know, hand in Michael's process. And then obviously with Joe, Joe was the guaranteed impact and the guaranteed reason why of Michael's work ethic, his ambition, his unfortunate or fortunate mentality, you know, growing up and the pressure and the, and the belittling and the assertiveness, the assertiveness, excuse me, and the control that, you know, he had on those, on those little kids as they were growing up. So that's, I would say that's what's similar. They both have their, their ends on the spectrum, but they are very in tune with Michael and has their hands on his process.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: You know, speaking of bringing, you know, the story that most audience members are probably very familiar with to some degree. You know, the King of Pop and his family and seeing a lot of them grow up and you get to play, you know, a familiar face in a way. Is there like a, is there like a pressure or responsibility to bringing someone.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Like that alive, not necessarily a pressure, but more of me truly in authentically telling the story in which I know that is the black ink on the white paper. That is the direction that Lynott has given me, that is direction that multiple creators have given me. And for me, what I did was you have to remove the 2024 vision of Joe. You know, when you talk about the verbal abuse, you talk about the physical abuse, you talk about, you know, the, the, the manipulations and, and the demeaning that he did with Michael. What I have to do as an artist is remove the 2024 perspective of that so I can dive into Joe in the most authentic way. You know, you take Joe who, who grew up, who grew this family up in Gary, Indiana, where poverty and gang violence and, and, and, and all this was an all time high. So for him, the stakes were different. The stakes were this is the only option. There is no if, ands or buts, you know, to be, to be, to be discussed or talked about. And so for me, what I had to do was remove the likability, remove the filter of likability, remove the filter of comfortability in order to tell this story. You know, there are scenes in the show where we really see the words and how they affected Michael. And I would do myself disservice if I try to make Joe likable, just make him human. You know, in every human, we have different emotions, you know, disappointment, anger, frustration, envy, all these things. And Lynn has shown that in Joe. So that is the mindset in the perspective I, I tend to, I tend to navigate when playing Joe. And it's not really a pressure, it's just more of a starting off the foundation that this man was human. And you know, we can say if it was fortunate or unfortunate the way things, you know, the way he did, he's. The way he did his things.
But for me, that is where I start and takes a lot of burden off just playing the, playing the human.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: And you know, I think that as a psychologist during my day job, you know, we learned that everybody has gray, you know, everybody has gray areas, you know, that it's not always so black and white. And it sounds like you were able to find that for Joe.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you do find it in this, and then again, don't get me wrong, it's something we constantly are nurturing, we're constantly playing with. You know, I, I found myself, I found my artistry on being a student and constantly letting, letting things breathe and letting them nurture themselves. And so, you know, there may be a show where I discover something different, something hits different than a pause, a breath emphasis anywhere. And so all these things affect the role, they affect the show.
And with Joe, he's the driving force for a lot of these scenes and just being as humanistic as possible instead of putting a hat on a hat to a degree and really just be in that position that we all know.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: He had in Michael's life as an actor. And again playing this real person who existed. Do you actually get to like make it like your own or do you feel like there is like a very, like, there's like a like almost like a bible you have to follow to.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Be to it on more the side of making it my own. You know, obviously I'm not Joe. And you know, when it comes to playing real people, I always had this mentality of here's the real person, here's myself. Instead of going all the way back playing this person, I'm going to meet this person in the middle and with research and knowledge and information, that person will navigate towards. And so this, this is cultivating of a brand new person in the middle is how I tend to play real people.
Again, that takes work on the research, on the knowledge, on the information that Lynn has given us in every, every creative.
But I would say I tend to play more of myself. And Rob, Rob is very gentle, Ro. Very organized. Rob is very, he's very, he's. He can be easily distracted, you know, but he also has things in front of him that he knows he has to get done. He's very ambitious himself. He's very idea goal oriented. I was a football player early on in my life and I grew up playing football. That's my first love. And, and you know, my dad and my cousins and my brother, they all played in college and in the league. And so having that, that technical foundation of, of being a Cher and being a director in this story and having that, that mentality of Michael, this comes first, this comes second.
You know, boxing things, dances over here, singers over here.
I tend to navigate more towards Rob in, in my natural Devon state. But Joe, there, there's. You pull some things, you know, but he's very, he's very creative. He is, he's a real person.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: You know, real quick, I just, I'm just interested about, you know, it's really, that's really awesome that you were very into football and stuff. How does one get into musical theater and end up on the road doing a Broadway show?
[00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah, so like I said, My brother, my dad and my cousins, they all played.
My uncles, they all played college football. My brother played with University of Tennessee, which Butch Jones and Derek Dooley, SEC from like 2012 to like 2015.
My dad played at Tennessee State. My uncle played at Arkansas, end up getting drafted by the Vikings. Cousin played at Morehouse, you know, my other cousin played at Kansas State. So like, it was, it was growing up was a, was a, I was a football head and I still am. I watch it every Saturday. There's a computer backstage playing college football every Saturday.
And for me, I had a medical procedure done in middle school and I, I had to stop playing football for a year or two. And in that time, the interest of singing gave itself a chance to just become a reality. I always grew up singing in the house. You know, Motown crazy, Luther Vandross, these artists in, in that group of era, that era of time was, was, was what my dad played growing up. And so those two, three years, I took off playing football. I was heavy in all state choir. I was heavy in, in the school musicals. I was heavy in learning knowledge about, hey, like, I want to pursue this, I just don't know how. And so, you know, sophomore, junior, senior year of high school came around, came along and I was not playing football. And I really put my head down and worked in choir and theater.
And I think that is where the spark became a flame, you know, when it comes to performing and knowing that this is what I want to do and just knowing, not knowing how I was going to capitalize off of it, but knowing that I wanted to do it. So football still my first love. I still study the game, I still watch the game. Not much NFL, more college football. But yeah, I'm definitely a fan of the game, but my stature is very football esque, which, you know, I still work on things like that in the gym and stuff, but yeah, football has always been there, man.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Well, I mean, that just, I mean, sorry to hear about your procedure, but that's like a cool transition of like, yeah, both loves.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah, God definitely. God said, God delivered. Yeah.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: So playing the two different roles in the show, and granted, I have not seen the show yet, we'll be seeing it tonight. But how do you switch between the mindsets of your two characters as you're going through the show?
[00:13:07] Speaker B: As you're going through the show. Yeah. It's funny because when we first started rehearsals, there were times where I was like, oh my God, who's next? Like, what character's next scene? And now it flows so smoothly. And so organically, for me, it's starting with having a firm foundation on who's who. Okay, what triggers who, what's their. Why. Why are they like this? Who are they talking to? At what point and does Michael affect these characters? Rob is a very reflective character, so he's a very reactive character. So his. In my opinion, his story is pushed based off what Michael gives him. He comes in and says, hey, Michael, here's what I have an idea with. Michael disputes, then Rob's transition is different. It's very, you know, I'm behind Michael. I'm pushing him. You know, I'm. I'm telling him, this looks like this. This is going this way. Here's what we have. Here's the numbers, here's the idea, here's the layout. He's very reactive character. He's reacting off of what Michael has given him. If Michael shows frustration, Rob is getting frustrated. If, If, If, If. If Rob. If Michael is having organization in his. His process, and this Rob is happy. So there's very, very reflective. Joe is in the complete opposite. He is the anti. He is the sun. And everything around him is in a solar system. The kids, Catherine, Motown, Barry, Gordy. Everything has evolved around him. So when he steps in the scene, he takes up space, he takes up time. He. He gives demands. There's no question marks. There's all periods.
And for me, it's fun. As an actor, I love jumping between the two. And when we add our spectacle aspects of lighting and staging and blocking, it makes it very easily receptive for the audience to know who's who. But for me, I love that luggage, that responsibility.
Yeah, it's a good time. It's like an actor's best of both worlds. You get to play the antagonist, and you also get to play the person who brings the heart out of Michael.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: So different from each other.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: So different from each other.
And it's energy, man. It's a presence thing. And you can tell by the way Rob carries himself. You could tell by the way Joe carries himself. And then we see arcs fully throughout the whole show.
It's a fun thing to watch. It's a fun thing to really study and learn from.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: So with this being a show, again, about a celebrity, but also about family, how do you feel like the show balances those two different aspects?
[00:16:03] Speaker B: It's, you know, we know Jackson 5As. As Jackson's 5, obviously, Michael, but when we start the show, it is more of a family dynamic. We do have family aspects throughout the whole show, but towards the end of the show. We start seeing the family dynamic change. We go from here, my brothers. We love to sing, we love to dance, we love to act. And by the end of the show, we see it being more business oriented. Okay, how can we make money? How can we keep going? And you see the dynamic of that change. You see Catherine and her hand on the family in the Jackson five Brothers.
So we definitely. Family is. It's the family or fear. It's like those are the two big words that have popped out for me the last few months. Being in rehearsal and having discussions.
You know Michael. As we know in the Victory Tour era, Michael started to depart from his family. So we see, we see dynamics of that in the story.
We see Joe lose his, his grip with the family.
We see Catherine and her relationship with the family.
So there is a, definitely a big dynamic in, in using family. We definitely know, oh my God, the way that we have choreograph this show. There are parts in the show where you see the brothers standing next to each other. We see these pictures, we see this camaraderie with the Jackson 5. And each one of them bring their own weaknesses and strengths to what we know that group is.
And it's, it's fun. It's a beautiful thing that they were and that they, you know, that they are.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: I love that. What themes from the show seem to resonate the most with you?
[00:17:56] Speaker B: I want to say the biggest thing for me is when it comes to Michael is being a humanitarian, knowing that the things you're doing are going to impact people long after you're gone. You know, we talk about Michael's charities in the show, we talk about Michael's heal the world, we talk about his, his, his service towards the. No police violence and anti gang violence. And so being humanitarian, some of the biggest things for me in playing Rob is knowing. Knowing if something.
How can I word this? Okay, let me, let me, let me think, let me think, let me think. The ceiling that you set for yourself, it can always be pushed further.
Rob plays it safe a lot in this show and Michael is always encouraging Rob to, to keep pushing forward, to keep, to keep changing the narrative, to keep pushing the ceiling higher. It's like when you. Andre De Shield said it best in his Hadestown Tony speech. It's like the bottom of one, the top of one. The top of one mountain is the bottom of the next. And we see Michael's work ethic, we see his ambition, we see his dedication in this show. So I couldn't find a word for that. But it's very like.
It's ambition, it's self discipline, it's consistency.
We see fear. Fear is a big one.
Rob has fear. You know, he has fear that Michael's gonna push himself too far.
We see fear in Michael. We see fear in Joe. You know, Joe's fears that his kids may end up back in Gary unsuccessful.
So we. We see fear, we see family, we see ambition, work ethic, influence.
We see all those things. Those are some of the themes that pop out to me right now.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: I was gonna say fear kind of can encapsulate, like, motivate all of those things, you know?
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. It's the. It's a scary thing to Joe your hands with, but it's real, you know?
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. So how has MJ the Musical challenged you as an actor?
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Oh, Lord have mercy. Everything I tell people all the time, I have experience, and it's scary. It makes me emotional.
I have experienced the most. The most growth doing this show on the road in my whole entire life, spiritually, mentally, physically, emotionally, romantically, my romantic life, my family and friends, like, my nutrition.
As far as MJ as an actor, it is really taught me consistency. It's taught me what it's like to be a leading man that I've always wanted to be. And I continue to strive to be the best Broadway leading man I can meet. I can be.
It's taught me time management on and off the stage.
It is. It's. It stretched me. This is my first national tour, my first time touring, and it's honestly my first big caliber role of this. Of this type, of this esque. And it continues to reflect things on my end. I've known about things I do and don't like about myself, about, you know, routines, behaviors, and it constantly stretches me. It's scary, man, but it's really.
I know. It's. It's making me become the man I want to be in the artist I want to be. It's taught me patience, whether that be patients on stage or off stage. It's just a lot. And it's, It's. It's.
It's definitely done its job for me, and it continues to do it.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: That has to be one of the best answers I've ever gotten for that question.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: It's. It's so real. And it's like, you know, I've. I've been on the road for a year and four or five months now. I think it's. It'd be a. We hit a year and four months.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: That's a long time.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Got a therapist, I've got nutritionist, I've got a dietitian, I've got a personal trainer.
I connected more my faith, my circle of friends, my circle of like close, good friends has gotten more clarity.
It's, you know, my financial means have become more efficient with myself.
Every, every aspect. You know, my romantic life is tough. I went through a rough, you know, detachment of a romantic situationship early on in the year, in the first year. But even then that alone grew me tremendously. And it taught me so many things about myself and about the young lady that I was, you know, trying to grow with or whatever. My family, my friends, my mom and dad have came out and seen the show many times. So like having a chance to expose them to something that they didn't were unfamiliar with growing up, you know, bringing them to LA for the first time was beautiful. So just, so many experiences, so many, so much growth.
It's going to keep going.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: I, I, you know what my next question was going to be like. How do you prioritize your mental health? But you've just, you've talked about it like you really have. Yeah, you said, became the person you wanted to be, brother.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: When you spend, when you really spend. Me and my therapists talk about this a lot. When you, I think when you were placed in a position, not to say I'm isolated, I'm not isolated, but when you're placed in a position, when you're sitting with yourself in your hotel room in your script, you know, traveling, when you're, when you're placed in a position to where you have to curate a self routine that is the most pivotal time when you get to know yourself, your weaknesses, your strengths, your red flags, your green flags, you know, you, you really get to know yourself. And for me, I feel like it's part of my duty as an adult walking through society to constantly work on those things. To be the best man I can be, Be the best man of God I can be, be the mess, the best artist I can be, be the best friend, brother, boyfriend, co worker, colleague, artist, student, whatever title you want to put on there. Like, it's, it's, it's made me want to just keep going. It's addicting, it's addicting. The growth is addictive. It's, it's like, oh my God. I look back at myself, I was last night looking back at myself when we were in la, we spent seven weeks in LA last Christmas and last New Year's and I was like, oh, my God, it makes me want to cry because that Devin, that version of Devin, I thought that he had it all. I thought that he knew.
And I still love that version of Devin. That version of Devin is still lovable and is deserving of love. But it's like, oh my God. Like, wow.
The leaps and bounds of growth is crazy. It's just. Wow. We just spent a whole day talking about that.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Listen, that's my day job, so that's totally okay. I love hearing that.
I love hearing that.
While on tour, are there any specific things or activities you look for in the cities that you go to?
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Yes, yes, but no. Some of these one weekers, when we're in the city for one week, it's tough because, you know, the free time and the flexibility of getting out, touring the city. But definitely I'm a food. I'm a foodie. I love restaurants. If there is a park or any body of river or water or a lake or an ocean, I'm definitely going to that.
Year one was better. Has been better than year two. But if there's any sporting events, I'm going. I've sang the anthem at a few baseball games. One of my favorite one was I sang the anthem in a Boston Red Sox game at Fenway. That was beautiful. So like any football game, basketball game, baseball game, if I'm in the city at the same time, I'm definitely going to that.
Yeah, any. I love nightlife. I love the activity of like a downtown area. I love seeing the energy of the. Of the people of the city.
I'm a sightseer. I love just driving around if I get a car or whatever and seeing whatever it is. But. But it varies, you know, from city to city. Some cities there's nothing to do and some cities there's too much to do, you know?
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Sure, there's a lot to do in Detroit.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I've been. I was told yesterday from a one of the press agents at Motown that to check out some haunted houses. Y'all have haunted houses here? And I'm like, everywhere. I'm a fan of that. I'm a fan.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: Well, you can't go wrong. But thank you so much for your time. I'm so excited to see you in the show and I think that Detroit is excited to see MJ the musical.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: It's gonna be great, but I can't wait to put people to be exposed to Michael in a different way. This is beautiful. Motown, Detroit, it's here. That's where we are.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Thank you, brother. I truly appreciate it.
