Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Bright Lights of Broadway. This is the Cosmic Curtain, the official podcast of Cosmic Circus Broadway. I'm Brian Kitson, head writer over at the Cosmic Circus and Cosmic Circus Broadway. And joining me, as always, is my co host and fellow box seat babe, R.J. miller. Zelenko, how you doing today?
[00:00:19] Speaker B: I am thriving.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: Are you thriving because it's the second show that we're on for the evening.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: I'm thriving because I thought it was a Monday, but it's actually a Tuesday.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: You're almost that much closer to the end of the week.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: And you're going on vacation, so it's perfect.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: I mean, it's work, but it's traveling.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: So before you travel, though, we obviously had to sit down and talk about MJ the Musical, which has traveled into Detroit. Currently, it is running at the Fisher Theater through the. Oh, I want to say it's the 10th, but I could be wrong here. The third. It's the third. Sorry. GoT shows mixed up. So through November 3rd, and obviously spoiler alert to anybody who hasn't seen MJ the musical either here or in. On Broadway or in England. Like, there's lots of shows going on right now. If you have not seen it, please turn away. We don't want to ruin it for you. And we are going to cover it. Everything.
All right, so, rj, we're going to go ahead and start with just your general familiarity with Michael Jackson. And as we know from the show, my. My familiarity with Michael Jackson was not great. Was not great.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, let's break that down.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Do we have to. Is there anything there that really needs to be broken down?
[00:01:44] Speaker B: I'm just shook.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Because you do.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: You have listened to folks from these from the same decade, but you just somehow missed out on explicitly mj.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: So just to give a little context for all the listeners out there. I did. It started that I did not know that Michael Jackson was in the Wiz. And that was the first fault that I did with the show.
And the second being that I was not as familiar with some of his later work. And specifically around the.
Like how. Like around, like the 1992 Dangerous Tour, which this show takes place at. You know, a lot of it centers on the Dangerous Tour. So, like, music prior to that.
But I'm gonna go ahead and say it, RJ, I know the Jackson 5. I grew up on the Jackson 5. Somewhere in the transition to Michael Jackson, I. We stopped listening. I don't know.
I can't.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Fine. It's fine.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: What is your familiarity with it? Because you came from a very musical household, but you also didn't listen to country music, as I found out when I thought that you did. So, like, what was your Michael Jackson experience?
[00:03:03] Speaker B: I mean, I.
Shockingly, without giving an entire backstory, I did not grow up listening to pop music until I was probably almost out of high school. And so the only time that I truly heard Michael Jackson was when I was, like, with friends or, you know, if the radio was playing somewhere public.
But I was familiar with Michael Jackson in the Wiz, and of course with the Jackson 5, kind of the older, earlier decade music.
Just because, I mean, Jackson 5 and stuff, that was music that my parents had and their parents were familiar with. Right. So.
And being someone who was into music, especially once I hit college, like, I was literally learning about music history and I was learning about Michael Jackson, but for sure knew, like, his. His main.
By no means do I know every song of his, but I do know many, many of his bangers.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Well, I mean, like, there are so many bangers. And I do want to say that I know the popular music. Like, that is not. There's no denying, Billie Jean Smooth Criminal. Like, there's all of these really good ones that Glee used, and I know them very well. So.
And of course, Jackson 5 is a classic. Who doesn't know ABCs? You know, like, who doesn't know the songs from the Jackson 5 because that is, like, inherently Motown. And we are this. We are Motown through and through here in Detroit. Like, this is. This is our bread and butter. How do we not know that?
Don't ask that question.
Did you actually know he was in the Wiz, or are you just leaving me out hanging to drive out here?
[00:05:21] Speaker B: No, I did because I remember I watched the Wiz on VHS multiple times because I was obsessed with the music.
So while, of course, like, I mean, I was little. So while I didn't at the time know what the words Michael Jackson really meant, I knew that it meant something or that he was someone.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to give you that. I cannot argue with your knowledge in the past, but, you know, I just wanted to stay here. That, like, I knew that Michael Jackson loved Spider man and he almost played Peter Parker in a film. So, like, I feel like that speaks to who I am a lot. Just throwing that out there.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Attracts.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Yes, it does.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: So let's just start breaking down the story. So the story is of Michael Jackson setting out on his 1992 world tour, which you weren't even born yet. So I feel like it's unfair for you to have Any thoughts? I'm just kidding.
But he's setting out on this tour, and there's a lot of frustration going on in the show. Like, there's, like. I think that part of, like, one of the driving factors of the show is, like, the idea of frustration, how to solve it.
Would you kind of agree with that?
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I would say, of course. I mean, it's like an autobiographical setup, and so we're fixated on his emotions and anything that touches that tour or the people that touch him, essentially, their emotions in regards to, of course, the tour and all of the things that are happening in that time.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: One of the things that's most frustrating for Michael as he's going through the show is that he wants it to be perfect. And there's this sense of needing to have perfection.
And as somebody who's not an artist, who's not a singer, who's not an actor, I can only experience that. But as somebody who is, do you, like, that's probably a very real emotion of, like, it's not perfect. It needs to be perfect. And you just keep going until you think that you have nailed it to perfection.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think in anything, we are all each our own worst enemy. Right where we are. Our. Our hardest critic.
I think, though.
I mean, for sure, I've been frustrated with myself when I'm performing or working on a project, and I. You. Do you want it to be great?
I think the mindset is a little bit different because they did hyper focus. Hyper focus on it being, you know, perfection was really the word.
And I know that perfection is not particularly attainable.
So I don't know that I'm ever really gearing towards perfection. I'm just gearing towards the best that it can be. And in this show and in essentially his life, it seems as though those two things are the same. Like, it seems like in order for something to be great, it had to be perfect. Perfect to such extreme lengths. And so I don't know that I can relate so much to the extremism.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: But I can for sure relate to wanting something to the product to be good.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: And that's clear, definitely what it is. He did take it to extremes. You know, he's talking about getting cannons to shoot him up into the sky and, like, jetpacks and, like, there's. There's, like, obviously a very, like, laughable comedy aspect to the story, but it's all in the air of, like, this king of pop who is at the top of his game wants to continue being at the top and not become somebody at the bottom.
And he does this through, like, reflecting through his life from a child to a young adult to the moment he is in this show, which I'm guessing, again, I'm really bad at time, but, like, 30, 40ish. Probably about right.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: What did you think about the overall story?
[00:09:55] Speaker B: I mean, we know how I feel about jukebox musicals.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: The story itself.
I mean, I feel like I can't comment on it too much because it is his story. It is.
It is.
Of course, it does the very common flashback type feel so that you're getting the current and the past through, you know, his own storytelling.
But I thought it was a good.
It gave a good timeline. It didn't give his entire life, but it gave a good amount. A good enough amount that I think people are the least familiar with, which is his upbringing and even his.
His youth, his young adult life.
But it wasn't. I found it interesting where they chose to kind of stop the timeline.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Like, that's a clear line in the.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Sand of, like, it makes sense to me. They wanted the show to be a positive, even though there's some clear darkness in it. They wanted it to overall be a positive experience. They wanted it to shine a light on his talent, I think was really primary focus. And it did. It did do those things. Like, there wasn't a point where I think any of it was tainted by the outside world, aside from what they wanted to show.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: Do you, like, do you think part of that was dictated by his family?
[00:11:46] Speaker B: 100%. I don't think you can. And granted, I could be totally wrong on this and somebody can correct me, but I am. With most autobiographical shows, there is some kind of green light, sure. From whether it's whatever is left of that person. Right. If they're already deceased, like, whether it is their company, whoever is kind of managing their name, because that is still a thing. Like, he's still making tons of money even though, like, his music is eternal. Right. And his products are eternal. And so that has to be managed. So I'm sure whatever. Whether that's his family managing that, whether it's. I think we saw in the program, the estate managing it, they for sure had some type of dictation on.
Here's what we want to share. Here's what we don't want to share.
Here is the actual purpose of this show. It's not sure. It didn't feel like the purpose was to exploit his life. It felt like the purpose was to show what he was passionate about.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: You know, I'm really glad that you said that. I was talking with somebody today and I actually had used this and I feel kind of guilty. But again, we're kids. But like growing up, Michael Jackson was kind of a joke. You like, I think about like all the movies and television shows and the memes and all of these different things that like we kind of like made fun of him and he was kind of the butt end of the joke. And this play, this musical takes that and just is like, actually here's his life and here's all the good that he did. I don't think enough. A lot of people know that about like the charities that he was passionate about and the things that he wanted to do. And it was one of the things that Devin Bowles, who I interviewed, who plays Joe Jackson, mentioned what drew him to the story was that they wanted to showcase of like his love for people, his love for the world, his. And that really was this, like the reason why he wanted to be perfect was because he wanted to save the world and he wanted to do things. He wanted all of his proceeds to go to there. And while it maybe was a very specific narrative, it was also a narrative that showed that he wasn't the joke that maybe a lot of us younger people grew up with him as.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Yes, our. And I think that is probably why the show was created in the first place.
Our generation's interpretation, as you're mentioning, you know, whether we say it was a joke or unfortunately as the show very almost, but doesn't quite address the kind of taint that surrounds his name, at least in my childhood, that is the only thing that I knew of his actual life outside of his music. It wasn't a very positive. He was not painted in a positive way nearly ever because it was usually news stories and they were usually not good. And as a child and even a teenager, I didn't, I didn't follow it close. Close enough to know whether that was right or wrong. But obviously those biases and those. That subconscious memory, that is what I retained outside of the fact that he's an incredible artist and dancer and yeah, his earlier work about charities and giving and helping people and his really his kind of compassion or passion for his family and his ability to go from, you know, child star to then being on his own, but then going back to work with his family, that back and forth dynamic like I never heard of. I hadn't heard of that ever.
Because of course that's not What. Not what the news likes to focus on?
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. Because I remember, like, growing up, seeing him, like, almost dropped the baby off of the ledge, you know, or like there was the. There's like. I Remember Scary Movie 3 and like, they were making fun of him. And like, there's these very clear moments of where it's just like we're laughing at his voice, we're laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation, we're laughing at the things that he was accused of. And this film, this show is just like. Actually, let's take a step back. Let's take a deeper look at this person. This person who was both human and ethereal, you know, that was both a pop star and a man and a boy at one point. And there was good and bad in all of us. And there's. There's. There's this very clear picture that we can kind of bounce between with they. They do cut. And one of the ways that they bounce, which I kind of wanted to talk about, is they had people play multiple roles. And when I again interviewed Bulls, he had mentioned of like, it's kind of Hamilton esque. And so I was expecting, like a clear, definitive, like, act one, act two kind of characters.
But what they did in this show was very interesting where they're switching the character sometimes in the middle of a scene with nothing but their body language and their voice and their mannerisms. And I had to say, I think that was probably one of the coolest parts of this show for me was just the. The amount of clear work that these actors had to do on stage in mere moments with nothing but their bodies.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. And granted, we were sitting pretty close to the stage. I'm curious as to what it looked like from like a balcony perspective because some of the changes to me were so subtle and noticeable to me.
But I'm on the orchestra level, so I can't imagine being three or four floors up and trying to dictate that that was something that was happening.
I think once the line was delivered and even the voices did change. So that was a clearer depictor, I think, more so than the physicality, particularly with the men, which I think more of the shifts happened with the men, but it, yeah, it was interesting. It caught me off guard at first. But another cue was the lighting design as well.
I give them props for that because they, you know, whether it was the change of color or the change of the spotlight, you knew that something shifted, even if you didn't know right away what it was.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. They're like, again, I'm going back to the Bulls. And he did this thing where he was Joe Jackson, and all of a sudden his one shoulder dropped. And, like, at first it was happening. I was like, what's. What is going on here? Like, what am I picking up on? And then as you started to do it, I was like, oh, you're. Like, you're switching in those moments. And, like, we saw this. I think you were. You're right. Like, we. The person who played Michael Jackson's mom felt like she was playing the same part both times, even though one was just like a dancer in the show and then one was his mom.
But I think that that was the parallel that was supposed to be there, that these two women are very similar for him, and he was feeding off of that, where his father and his manager were completely opposite, but also getting the same results.
And I am interested in how that looks like from the balcony, because it probably was different.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like, you're not going to notice a shoulder drop, probably. And from the balcony, to be real, unless there's movement with that. So I would say the moments that it was very clear that there was a character change was when that character was moving from one to the other, whether that was a saunter across the stage, but it was the moments where they were standing, standing still. And I think it was literally just the lights and the voices that were changing that made it a little bit harder because you had to really be paying attention to know, oh, like, he just dropped his voice lower or higher.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: Right?
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Or, you know, or she, you know, she's standing on this side of him versus 2 seconds ago when she was standing on the other side of him.
There's very subtle intentionalities that I think if you're not paying super close attention.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: You could definitely miss from an outward perspective or even as, like, from an artist perspective and stuff like that. What do you like?
Because there were scenes that were clearly flashbacks. Like, we did go back and we saw this younger moments.
Did what. What was like, that difference for you? Like, for. Because to me, I almost wish that while it was really cool, I think that I liked the flashbacks a little bit easier because I could just, like, join into the story a lot easier because I'm like, oh, this is the exact moment in time we're at. This is young Michael Jackson. This is teenage Michael Jackson. This is the family, the close.
But there are moments, too, where it just doesn't. And, like, I guess. Where's that line for you? Like, did it work? That blend? Did it not work.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: I think it worked in regards to how they wanted it to work. Like those moments that weren't full scene changes. I think we are more so just supposed to be hearing it as if we're him and we're hearing that voice in our head and he's reflecting on that moment. Like, I know a couple of points where he's talking to the reporter and. Or his manager and we're just bouncing between that and then the voice in his head that is his dad and those drawing those similarities and then popping out of that back into the scene. Sure.
But it could be confusing because they do it both ways where it is either just full character or full scene change.
But, yeah, it is. It's way more clear when it is a full scene change to be like, oh, we're in childhood or we're in adulthood.
But of course, then we would have been having scene change every probably couple of lines because of the amount that shift happened.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: I was talking with somebody today and I actually got to draw parallels between two shows that we saw recently. And they knew right away as soon as I mentioned it, but they had brought up a scene of, like. One of the coolest scenes in MJ was actually when older MJ would step into these scenes of the younger mj. Like the scene where he's singing with his mom and he's getting this moment of getting to, like, join in as an adult and get to see that differently, experience that differently. And I had said to this person, I was like, well, you know, I saw this in another show and it worked just as well. And they said, you must have seen Fun Home and the fact that they knew right away. And they're like, yeah, they use the same, like, modality of, like, bringing that character back and getting to have, like, that emotional catharsis. And I think that's really interesting that, like, we got to see two examples of that this week. But Michael Jackson does that. I think it does work pretty well where when he steps back into that moment, you're getting to see, like, almost like a therapeutic healing of like. Of like, Michael Jackson to himself, if that makes sense.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it is definitely something that is reoccurring, I feel like. And will continue writing wise in. In newer productions.
Because I think back to even some shows mo more recently that I've seen that also are autobiographical. Like, share.
I can't remember exact. Well, no, they do. The younger and older versions literally speak to each other. Right. About the damage done or the life that they live.
Beautiful. Which is the musical based off Carole King.
While there aren't direct flashback moments where the characters seeing themselves, there is kind of this. That same narrative happening of flashback. But it's so. It's interesting to see, like, this must be trending in regards to musical writing because.
And I think that just like we could go into a whole thing about society and why we all of a sudden are doing that and why it's more happening more often now.
But it is. It's because it's powerful. Right. Like, to see it on stage, it's powerful.
And we all. I think you even said this to me earlier this week.
Or no, someone we were speaking to said this where we all wouldn't. We all love to have a moment where we could go back and be in that place with those people at that time, one more time. Yes.
And obviously it's not possible, but I think that is probably why these moments are occurring more and more frequently in shows, is because it is kind of the thing that we would love to chase.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: No, I mean, absolutely. And I think that we saw this in the Cher show too, which was here last year, where she interacted with herself and there was moments where different ages stepped into different moments and got to speak the. What she needed to say. And like, there is this, like, I think that we all look back and we're like, I would do something differently, or I wish I did said this thing. And we don't always get that moment to ever address it again. And so to be able to do that in an art form is very beautiful. And it adds a. For the audience. It also adds emotional catharsis, like you said, because you get to see those moments being like, I wish I could step back and have that moment with that person. But not only that, the story doesn't shy away from the difficult aspects either. And we kind of mentioned some of these, like the. They mentioned the allegations. They mentioned mortgaging Neverland to finance the Dangerous tour, Joe Jackson being abusive, which, you know, I always thought was just like a rumor, but like a very well known rumor. But they address it and they put it there on stage, even burning himself in the Pepsi commercial. Um, did you, like this, like this aim at transparency? Do you feel like this, like, it doesn't exactly hurt his reputation per se, but like, is it almost too transparent for the story they were trying to tell?
[00:26:52] Speaker B: I think it was appropriate. I don't think that you can justify his history without addressing many of these things.
Of course, his upbringing and because his family was such a massive part of his life, like, you just can't leave that out, especially.
I mean, yeah. His dad being essentially running the Jackson 5 for however long and then being such an instrumental piece of his mentality. When we talk about that perfectionism, you. They drew direct alignment from his father's words to the words that he was using. And then in moments where people were drawing those. Those lines and bringing it to his attention, how upset he became over that and how he did not want it to be the case. But it just shows, like, just because, unfortunately, just because you don't want something to be doesn't mean that it isn't. And so his behavior, for sure, as an adult was affected by his childhood, which, you know, psychology 101. We know that to be true.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: What? No, but, like, you're right. It does dictate exactly who he is in that moment and everything that led to that. And his dad being hard on him is why he was hard on himself. And, like, we can all see that and we can rationalize it and we can understand it. And it does help, again, I think it does help to humanize this. This character again, because you get to, like, when you see where someone came from, you see how rough that can be, or, like, it doesn't always excuse their behavior, but it does make you understand why they're doing it.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think in the show, he even has a line kind of saying, like, there is only one me, and I am the only one who has the ability to live my experience. And so even though everyone can have these perceptions about me, truly, at the end of the day, as is true for all of us, we are the only ones living our experience.
And his is just incredibly unique, as most child stars who then grow up through the ranks of stardom do. I can't even imagine. Can't even begin to imagine.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: And it does also explain a lot of the behavior that, again, we made fun of him for when we were.
A decade or two ago, because somebody who's chasing the child that they never had, somebody who's chasing the veil, validation that they never received.
They do things that don't always make a lot of sense to us.
But when you look at that picture, you're like, that makes a lot of sense that, like, that he was just somebody that wanted to feel loved and he wanted to feel accepted, and he didn't.
And I think you even got to see that in a point, too, where he addresses kind of like, the changing of his skin color. And, like, someone's just like, are you bleaching it and stuff. And he's just like. He just wants to be him. Like, why can't he just be him? There's all these things. All these things that people are demanding of him, and nobody just sees him for who he is. And that was, like, a really tough moment, I think. Like, again, I think that especially as queer individual, we sometimes come face to face with that all the time of, like, you don't see me for who I am. You don't recognize me, you don't accept me. And so sometimes we resort back to ways that aren't always healthy to deal with that, which for him, it was humor. He was clearly a very funny guy. He liked to be very funny. He liked to dress up. He liked to make people laugh. And that was like that childlike wonder of just like, life sucks and it's been difficult, and I just want a moment to laugh.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Which honestly, I did not know that about his personality until the show.
Like, the time that he, like you said, dressed up and kind of walked into the room just to kind of see the perception of playing someone else in a room full of people that would recognize him, just to kind of see the outcome and escape those expectations.
Crazy to. It's crazy for someone like us to probably think about because we're like, you know, that I think every. Maybe not every child's dream, but when you're younger, you're like, how cool would it be to be a pop star? How cool would it be to be, you know, on tv, Right. You have. The grass is always greener on the other side. Then you have. Someone who grew up in stardom, has never had a bit of privacy in their life.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: And now all they want is maybe just the sliver of a normalcy that they can literally never, never obtain.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. And it's kind of reminded me a little bit of, like, Undercover Boss of, like, you get to see people in a new perspective. Of, like, how do they view you? And who do you view yourself when you're not in the room? And, like, do these people support you? Do they believe in you? Or are they all just the echo chamber telling you what you want to hear but then talking shit behind your back?
I did notice in this show, though, they had pretty much erased his sisters.
Did you pick up on that while we were there?
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Yes.
And I. And I wasn't sure. Well, once again, I'm not sure if that was coming from the writers, if that was coming from his.
From his family, saying, sure, do not write this part of the his Life for the purposes of privacy.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Because they're all still alive.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
So I feel like that was. And maybe that was the reason, too, because of that they only wanted to mention, you know, briefly mention who they needed to mention in for the sake of storytelling, and then took out anyone that really didn't need to be a part. But, yeah, it was an interesting. And truly, like, his mother was not in it very much either. I mean, she had, what, the one song.
But, yeah, interesting.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: I do. I do wonder if it was the streamlined. Because I thought about it, I'm like, where would you put the sisters? Like, when you think about that show was pretty tight. There's, like, where exactly they don't fit into the Dangerous tour. You could have them in some of the flashbacks, but the flashbacks were specifically in moments. Where was the Jackson 5?
[00:33:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:26] Speaker A: And they were never part of the Jackson 5. So, like, they. You could have them at home in that one scene, but then, like, that's having, what, three or four extra actors for one additional scene? Does that make sense for a budget? Probably not, right?
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And they were never even the Jackson 5. Aside from literally the fact that they were the Jackson 5, none of the scenes were so prominent that you needed anybody extra on that stage to make the point that you were making.
[00:34:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. I would agree with that.
So switching to the songs and the dance, as you addressed before, this is a jukebox musical, not one of your favorites. We have had a lot of them. I just want to throw that out there. We've had Moulin Rouge. We've had Mamma Mia. We have had the Cher show. This one is more specific in the fact that it's kind of like the Cher show. You're telling a story of the person whose music is on stage.
Where does this rank in, like, your ranking of jukebox musicals? Because I feel like it's not fair to ask you, like, did you like the jukebox musical? Because, again, not your favorite, but, like, I guess. Where does this rank in your top or bottom?
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Well, it's as we've said. And I feel like I always keep making accommodations for jukebox musicals after I say that I don't like them. But this one's so unique because it's literally talking, like, we're literally walking our way through a music tour. So it doesn't feel like they're trying to fit music in where it doesn't belong.
I mean, there are a few moments where you're like, oh, and now we just have broken out into song but for the most part, I mean, it's probably towards. Probably towards the top because it seemed appropriately paced. We weren't just getting bombarded with medley after medley after medley just to fit in his catalog.
We got songs, we got the staple pieces that everybody wants to see.
And.
And while I'm on the topic of that, like, just shout out to the literal whole cast of the show because these are like eternal songs and dances that can so easily be done not well.
And they were just all done so well, down to the actor playing mj.
I mean, general consensus, probably one of the best, if not the best imitator or whatever word you want to use there for Michael Jackson. I know we were with some folks who had seen shows, MJ shows previously because of course there are like professional MJ imitators out there. They make their living on having shows like this. And I think this one just blows. Blows it out of the water. But I'm getting away from the topic at hand.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: I think that's fair. I think Jamal Fields Green does such a great job as Michael Jackson. Like, from the voice to the dancing to the singing, that was the best Michael Jackson impersonator impression that I have ever seen. And I've been to Vegas, I have been to New Orleans. I have seen tons of impersonators.
They captured it perfectly.
That was Michael on the stage. And you could not convince a lot of people that that wasn't.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: Yes, agreed. And obviously I've never seen Michael Jackson live, but it felt like I did. Like, it felt like down to the mannerisms and the voice with the voice is so important in the inflection.
And I know that that's not something that's easily attained.
And so, yeah, just massive shout out because it genuinely made it feel. The storytelling felt just 110%.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: I do not think that you could have had the show without Jamal. Like, I feel like I couldn't. I can't even picture who else could go into that role. And I guess I didn't know who would be in the role to begin with. But, like, they're so good. Like, like I. In my head, I walked out. I was like, that was the only person that can play that role.
And it's still on Broadway, so I know that there's a Broadway star. But like, in my head I was like, this was like, he looked just like him.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: So good.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: This is also, you know, so the music again, popular music. And some of it was really interesting in how they presented it. I think that some of the songs that really Stuck out to me was like the song where he's giving the press release, like the. He's like. He's talking to the press at the end of act one. And like, the song matched what was happening so well. But it wasn't a song. It was just like, I'm just singing this because it's a Michael Jackson song, you know, Like, I'm not just performing this because it's. It. It's like it actually fit the story. Like, they took these songs and they actually put them in there and they're like. Some of them were just like, okay, we're singing ABC because you're performing as Jackson 5 on a stage show, and we're trying to show you're moving from scene to scene that fits. When there's some songs that just went so well into the story that it felt like it was made for it.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: I think that was what was cool.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: Yeah, the musicality was very well done, very intrinsically.
Just sewn in a very story storyline way.
[00:39:29] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Where sometimes I feel like when we, like, saw like the Cher show, it felt more like the. This is the moment stop and sing a Cher song.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: And nothing. Nothing to shit on that show. I love the Cher show. You saw it twice, correct?
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Yeah. It's just. It's just different styles. I mean, and the way in which someone's life is told is not always directly through their music. And so you just. You know, I think it speaks also to the artist. Like, even in the show, we. You hear MJ talk about how his music is basically him. Like, that is where he feels the. Like, the most himself.
And that is exactly why I think it works in the show. Because the reason of him creating it is now just being displayed. Like it just makes sense.
Whereas maybe previous or other artists had very specific reasons for specific albums and different perspectives on different things. So, yeah, felt very well integrated.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: And along with the music, I think the show does really well too, is the dancing. I do want to make note that this is the third show that we've had this season, and it is the third dance heavy show. But such a different dancing than the other two. Like, I just was like, really noticing that. I was like, okay, so we have the Moulin Rouge, which is a lot of, like, typical, like, traditional Broadway dancing. Can. Can dancing. You're doing all these things. A very big spectacle. You have some, like a hot. Which is a lot of tap dancing, and it's a spectacle. And then you have Michael Jackson, which was a spectacle, but it was more like modern dancing. And like, again, you're seeing the traditional Michael Jackson moves, but you're seeing everybody else dance like they were in the 90s and they were all like, how they were not out of breath, but they were like dancing from scene to scene in quick costume changes and all those things. It was just as impressive as any other show when it came to dancing, in my opinion, that we've seen so far from Broadway in Detroit's 2024, 2025 season.
What do you think on that?
[00:41:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. Which has been honestly refreshing because not too many modern shows have dance in them anymore.
I feel like we get a lot of ballad heavy musicals or maybe, you know, those powerhouse modern shows that are a little bit more simplistic because they're more vocally challenging.
I'm trying to think of one, but naturally I can't even think of one right now. But just to the degree where the vocals match the difficulty in regards to choreography or dance as well, like, I'm thinking of like six. Six is insanely, vocally challenging. And yes, there are.
I wouldn't even call it. I would not call six a dance musical. I'd call it choreography. I'd call it movement. Yes, there is a lot of movement, which really, for me typically means anything from the waist up. You're doing a lot dancing. I think you have footwork that's happening and you have your upper body moving. It's full body movement.
And I think that's just the separation of the type of musicals that they are. But for sure, yeah, you have the staple. I mean, that was the first thing people asked me after I saw the show was did they do the Michael Jackson moves? And of course the answer is yes. So.
And that's what people want to see, right? They want to see these things that feel like they almost don't exist anymore because obviously Michael Jackson is not here. So who can do them? Well, of course, an impersonator and. Or the cast of the show, for sure.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: But like the moonwalk or like the jumping that he does or like the standing on the edge of his toes, like all of those things that are so quintessential Michael Jackson that you don't get. And the one show that came to mind when you said about like, that isn't heavily movement came it was Pretty Woman. When we saw it, it was like they'd moved to a spot, they would sing a song, they'd move to another spot, they'd sing a song. There was a few dances or numbers, but there weren't always necessarily like heavy singing, but this one was like singing, dancing all at the same time. Integrated from start to finish.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Full body workout whole time.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: 100%.
And I love that. I think that like I don't know again what we're going to get from the rest of the season, but I liked this idea of like we're starting off strong and I like these dance heavy shows and I've never seen Mean Girls live. Can't attest to how dance heavy or not it is Les Mis. I know it's not going to be dance heavy. But then like we get into six and we get out into, you know, we get into a lot of musical fast paced numbers and shows that I am that like, I think that these three shows really set that tone because like they are just such dance heavy in such different ways and they're also so beautiful in how they present it.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's the difference too. Maybe that I'm, I'm.
My lack of ability to think of words when it comes to dancing. Is the difference being. This is being presented as a dance. Right. Like when I think of Moulin Rouge, they're not pretending that. I mean they are pretending to talk to each other and dance at the same time, but they are intentionally. Their characters are dancing, sing. It's not, I'm walking and talking and then I'm just dancing because I'm singing.
But the dance is actually built in where of course, like with this, they're on the dangerous tour. It's a literal tour with dancing in it.
So the, the intentionality.
Whereas. Yeah. Upcoming Mean Girls. Yeah, you're going to have dancing because you're going to have choreography.
But the point of the show is not dancing. At no point in the show are they saying, hey, let's dance.
[00:46:07] Speaker A: Sure. Okay, that's fair.
And I think that's the cruel thing about Broadway is that every show doesn't have to be the same. But it's really cool when you get a show like this that just is like the person I talked to today, they said it is an absolute spectacle. And I used that for the last two shows, but I was just like. But this is a spectacle in just the, a different way. And it's just as cool. You know, it's just, it's just a, a different presentation of what a spectacle can be. That is like truly quintessential Broadway. Like I think that this, you understand why this is the fastest growing show on Broadway and it recouped its money the fastest. Like because People are going to not just see Michael Jackson, but also to like, see that spectacle of a show knowing that, like, Michael Jackson brought the heat. And Dangerous, the Dangerous tour, the show is also going to capture that with the show as well. Again, we always got to go back to the audience interaction. We've talked about it nearly every single show that we've done.
This show had a lot of audience interaction, but I expected that. Did you expect that for this one?
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, once again, you're writing that line of like, it's not a pop concert, but it almost is. Right, Right. So. And the familiarity.
The majority of your audience is gonna know the songs, they're gonna know the movements, they're gonna know the mannerisms.
Whereas, yeah, you walk into a stage show or, you know, a newer musical and you can't imitate that. You can attempt to imitate Michael Jackson because you've probably heard thriller 3,000 times, right?
[00:47:59] Speaker A: Sure.
Especially during the Halloween time, right?
[00:48:03] Speaker B: Yes, we are in the time of Thriller, for sure.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: In fact, they're doing something special either tonight or tomorrow. Like one of the next three days. They're doing something special for Thriller. And I kind of was like, I kind of want to go just to see, like, how is. What are you doing for Thriller? Because that is like, that is the Halloween song, you know.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I saw that. I was. I figured they're probably just. I mean, they're probably doing the full.
As we know, they do do a little bit of. Of a scene with it, but I think they're probably just going to do the full music video esque. Oh, Dynamic, I have a feeling.
Which would be super fun. Obviously those audiences are really going to enjoy that.
[00:48:49] Speaker A: Sure. 100%.
I also want to address this too, that we had one of the most packed houses for an opening night. Like a night that we go to see these shows that we have ever seen. And at this point, we've been doing this for almost a year. I've dragged you along for almost a year, I should say. But this show was packed.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually, I was speaking briefly with Amber, our lovely contact over at Broadway in Detroit, about that. I mean, just about when I pulled up, I noticed, like, how many folks were there. And she did say, like, this is the best sold show of the season as of. As of currently.
And that was a little bit shocking to me. Not like in no Shade on the show, but it. Just because it is a newer show, I didn't realize it had as much clout as it clearly does.
And with them bringing in Some big title shows this year. It was. It was kind of surprising, but also, like, really encouraging for the theater scene because as we know, there have been some shows that have kind of severely lacked in attendance. And so it's good to know that it's not. It's not the theater realm in general, just maybe some particular shows that need some publicity help.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: I'm going to ask you a very honest question, but I'm going to answer it first. Okay.
If we did not get to see the show as reviewers, would you have bought tickets to go? And my answer is absolutely, probably not. And I'm really glad that we got to see it, because I don't think that this was the show I thought it was going to be, and I don't think it was a show that I would have sought out because, again, as we clearly understand from the beginning of this podcast, I was lacking in my Michael Jackson knowledge and repertoire here.
Would you have actively sought out this show if you did not have. If you did not have season tickets or you did not have tickets as a. As a press, would you see it?
[00:50:58] Speaker B: Well, it's an unfair question because I do have a little bit of insight from my days as an Usher.
[00:51:07] Speaker A: That's.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: Oh, this show toured on the west side of the state last season, and I had heard nothing but good things about it. So I pro. It probably would have piqued my interest enough to go.
And for those of you who maybe don't regularly attend shows or don't have season tickets, it just. Broadway in Detroit does an incredible job at doing promotions and having Rush tickets and having student tickets. So I for sure probably would have taken advantage of one of those options. Probably would have meant that I was, you know, in the way back of the balcony or something like that. But to just say, like, hey, I saw it. I went, you know, and made my determination from there.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: Okay, no, that's fair. I. Sometimes I forget that you also worked as an usher. Like. Like, if it's not at the forefront of my mind, it's clearly not in the head at all. So I was just like, I'm going to ask this question. It's going to be really cool. And clearly that did not pan out the way I wanted it to.
I have to say, though, I do think that it's interesting. And the person I talked to today, they did not go for season tickets this year, but this was the one of the shows that they had to see. And so I said, why? What is it about this? And he goes, there's just Something about the way that this show is presented that I had to see live.
And he could. Like, that was like the end of the identifier. And I said, that's interesting. And again, I wonder if it's just the growing up, what you listen to. And, you know, I think that kind of leads to the next question of why do you think people are drawn to the show specifically? I think that there's just that huge draw of Michael Jackson was the Taylor Swift of, you know, past decades, or the Beyonce or the, you know, Harry Styles. Like, he was the star that, like, people show up because he shows out.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: Well. And I think, too, at least even I guess, in my own perspective, like, I never got to see him. Right. And I never will. And so this is the closest thing to experiencing him as an artist as I will ever get to. So I think maybe from that perspective, it is very much a. I mean, for sure, if you're a fan, like, why wouldn't you go? But also, if you're maybe someone who just has had or heard of, been in the realm of Michael Jackson, even just a peak of curiosity, it would probably tip you over the edge in regards to. I could. I could check that out. I could. I could look at that.
[00:53:50] Speaker A: Okay. I mean, that makes sense. Do you think that this is where the future of kind of Broadway is going? Do you think that there's gonna be, like, more, like. I feel like this is almost like a safe bet. It sounds weird to say because, like, you are taking a gamble, especially with somebody who maybe had a very mixed later years, but do you see, like, maybe more shows like this becoming a thing?
[00:54:15] Speaker B: I think they already are. I mean, I think. I think, like, the ones we've already mentioned. And then, of course, what. We have Hell's Kitchen on Broadway right now.
[00:54:24] Speaker A: Yes. Forgot about that.
[00:54:28] Speaker B: And I know there's. I think there's another one coming up this season. A Beautiful Noise.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Yes. Neil Diamond.
[00:54:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's just like one after the other. And I'm sure there's more that I'm just not thinking of, but.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: Mamma Mia, that's a huge one.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just. It is, I think, in its prime, this kind of autobiographical jukebox style creation.
Granted, we know it takes, like, a decade to build a musical. Ish. Depending on your funding and who's.
So I. I think it will come in waves. I think we are just in this wave of.
Yeah, clearly there was a. There was a point in time where we just grabbed a bunch of. Actually, I think there's another one on Broadway right now about country singers.
I can't think of Swept Away, Swept something.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: It's coming. It's coming out. It's not quite here yet.
[00:55:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think it's in either previews or workshop.
So. Yes, we're just, we're just in this time where this type of and style of musical is and also feels way more when we talk about accessibility and ticketing and we talk about experiencing artists.
I never, I have only ever been to two concerts.
It like in my life that were like pop star dome type style and I didn't even purchase the tickets to go to them. So if Michael Jackson had been touring right now, I would not go buy a ticket to see him, truthfully. But would I go and buy a music ticket to the musical about him? Yes. And I don't know if that says anything about me as a theater nerd or as a person, but I think that that's what we're experiencing now is people are interested in the things that maybe they never had an opportunity to see and how it's being presented. Of course, now is by musical.
[00:56:37] Speaker A: I do think that there's also a bit of like the.
With a musical you get a story and like with a concert you get to sing along. You know, like there's, there's like a clearly, like there's two different people. I love a concert.
Did Panic at the Disco Announcer coming back next year and am I going to probably have to go, unfortunately, but like. Because I want to sing along with my favorite artist. But if there was a show about it, I would go see the show. I probably see the show multiple times if I liked it, you know, because like, like and Juliet, it's all pop music. It's all things I know. I enjoy the story too. Like I know those songs and therefore I'm familiar with it. I also would love to see that. What I, you know, would I go see Michael MJ the musical again?
Absolutely, actually. And this is surprising because again, not Michael Jackson was not my. Was not my person before this.
But I would go see this musical again because it presented this intriguing story with songs, again, popular songs of his that most people know.
Rewatch ability.
[00:57:37] Speaker B: Rewatch ability, I would say. Yeah. I mean, and the entertainment value is there. Right. And once again, it's high energy. It's a feel good. Even though there are brutal moments, it's a feel good musical. It ends on a high note, really.
And it's both educational and entertaining.
[00:58:04] Speaker A: I couldn't say it better myself. And so in that case, I'm not going to thank you so much, listeners, for listening to another episode of the Cosmic Curtain, the official podcast of Cosmic Circus Broadway. Don't forget to, like, follow and subscribe to us at Boxy Babes or Cosmic Circus for all updates. If you're interested in finding us outside of our box seats, please check us out at our socials at Brian it's in 301 or Kitson 301, depending on what platform you're on. Because why I never streamlined those, I'll never know.
RJ where can the people find you.
[00:58:40] Speaker B: Can find me on the gram at Journey Underscore through Underscore, the underscore past Underscore.
[00:58:50] Speaker A: And with that, till our next curtain call. Have a great night.
